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What are we saying: Reds hiring of Terry Francona
Doug Gray 10/05/2024 88
Unless you’ve been living in the abandoned subway tunnels in Cincinnati, you’ve surely heard by now that the Cincinnati Reds have hired Terry Francona to be their next manager. Plenty of people have chimed in on it. Today some of the Redleg Nation writers submitted some shorter thoughts on the hiring. Over the next few days we’re expected to get some longer form pieces from a few of our writers, too.
John Ring
Stunned by the hiring of Terry Francona and will give credit to the Reds for that. Moving quickly, in this case, was worth it. Francona’s resume speaks for itself. This is the Reds best hiring since Jack McKeon. Players (I would think) will have a lot of respect for him and should understand he’ll call them out on gaffes and base running blunders. The pressure is now on Krall and Ownership to do their part. I hope Francona clears out the current coaching staff and fills the positions with baseball people he trusts. The only concern I have—aside from Krall and Ownership— is his health. I’m looking forward to a positive off season. For this hiring, I give the Reds an A-
Jim Walker
Hiring Terry Francona as David Bell’s replacment may be the biggest Reds positive move since the Joey Votto extension way back whenever (2013?). It may even be the Reds most seismic move since Dusty Baker was brought in to be manager ahead of the 2008 season.
Only time will tell if the ownership will back up this move with an improved roster. However, at least the Reds ceiling has been potentially raised by hiring Francona since he has a record of getting the most from the players available to him which for whatever reasons did not seem to be consistently happening for David Bell.
Doug Gray
On the list of things that I personally felt were the reasons that the Cincinnati Reds weren’t doing a lot of winning lately, the manager was pretty far down the list. That’s not to say that I felt David Bell was all that good of a manager, but it is me saying the problems were far more than bullpen usages and batting orders and getting picked off 37 times or whatever the number was.
Two thoughts went through my head after the initial “No way the Reds landed Francona” were two very opposite thoughts. The first one was a good one in the sense that it’s tough to envision a manager of Francona’s stature taking the job without being told ahead of time that the front office/ownership would commit money and or resources to bringing in more players that are needed.
The other one was basically the 25-year-old thought that this was hopefully not another Ken Griffey Jr. move, where ownership decided to go big on one person and believe that they didn’t need to do anything else and the winning would just happen because you added that guy to the organization. Let’s all hope this thought was just the PTSD of being a 40-year-old Reds fan who was in the 5th grade the last time the team advanced in the playoffs.
Mary Beth Ellis
Well that was quite the puff of white smoke.
Josh The Pilot and I were finishing dinner in the middle of California and as we rose from the empty wine glasses and uneaten vegetables, I checked my phone and everything was different.
“We must call him Tito now,” I said.
How… how did this happen? What did the Reds offer him? Fiona?
What concerns me the most is that I’ve been on the other side of the country for the past ten days. I fluttered a handkerchief from the deck as I sailed off via Delta, shouting, “I’ll be back in two weeks! Don’t be interesting in the meantime!” and the Reds waved back, all “It’s the offseason, silly! Go and be happy!”
Immediately:
*Reds lose TV broadcasting*
*Pete Rose dies*
*Terry Francona hired*
Apparently I need to quit Cincinnati if the Cincinnati Reds are to do anything at all. But most of all I wonder about these two lines from the piece I wrote above: “Maybe the Reds don’t have the new guy nailed down yet. I am most amused by the possibly that they don’t have a new guy at all.”
Perhaps this explains the incredibly weird timing of Bell’s departure. Was Nick Krall burning the boats? Does he have it in him to do such a thing?
There’s an entire book behind this hiring process, and if I don’t get to write it, I jolly well want to read it.
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About The Author
Doug GrayDoug Gray is the owner of RedsMinorLeagues.com and Redleg Nation. He’s been writing about baseball since 2006.
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88 Responses
David 10/05/2024
I will relate an anecdote that I got from my Brother in law some years ago.
He was a part time commercial bus driver (had been an over the road trucker for years before he retired for health reasons). He drove buses down in Cincinnati on occasion. He drove the Cleveland Indians from their hotel to the stadium one day. He said they were a very upbeat and friendly bunch, and he credited that to Francona and the attitude he imbued in the players.
He also drove the Reds from the stadium to the airport once. He said they were all kind of sullen and quiet, did not seem really warm and friendly. And he attributed it to a couple of things, but this was when Brian Price was manager.
PS. – my BiL also pitched in minor league baseball for a couple of years, and has been a lifelong Reds fan.
Rednat 10/05/2024
I bet if he drove in the 1970s it would have been the opposite! Lol
Rednat 10/05/2024
I agree with you Doug. I would rank manager as the 10th problem on the list for our Reds. The top 9 problems are lack of any consistency at the plate from the 8 position players and dh.
Having said that you have to be excited about this hire. Hopefully he can duplicate the success of Dusty and Lou during their reigns here.
Dewey Roberts 10/05/2024
If managers make so little difference as most people seem to think, why don’t teams just let the players play without a manager? What people are missing is the aspect of leadership. Yes, it is the players who make the plays, but teams need to be led. The best managers are the best leaders.
greenmtred 10/05/2024
I think you’re probably right, Dewey, that leadership is a very important–perhaps the most important–aspect of managing. There’s a big difference between acknowledging that managers don’t have as much impact on a team’s record as some think and saying that teams don’t need managers.
Doug Gray 10/05/2024
The thing is – managers matter…. if the options are Terry Francona and Redleg Nation Commenter. The managing difference between the amount of people qualified to be a big league manager probably isn’t that big. There are only 30 of those jobs and there are way more than 30 qualified people for those jobs around.
Dewey Roberts 10/05/2024
Doug, I simply disagree. There is a lot of difference between MLB managers. It is not so much in knowledge, but in leadership. There is a reason that some managers and some coaches produce winners more than others.
Frankie Tomatoes 10/05/2024
Did Francona forget how to manage in 2021? What happened in 2018 when he won 11 fewer games than he did in 2017? What did he learn from 2015 when he was one game over 500 that pushed his team to 27 games over 500 in 2016?
Did Francona learn so much between his time in Philadelphia where he had a 440 winning percentage and three years later winning 98 games with the Red Sox and a world series?
Why did Craig Counsel not bring his winning ways with him from Milwaukee to Chicago this year? Why did Sparky Anderson lose 103 games a year after he was 14 games over 500?
Joe Torrie never came close to having a winning record as Mets manager. He won 89 and 88 games in his first two seasons with Atlanta after leaving New York.
Torrie then went on to manage in St. Louis and in the last two years there he finished a total of 15 games under 500 and got fired midseason. The next year he took over the Yankees and averaged 98 wins for 12 years.
Managers can only do so much. The players in the clubhouse matter far more than the guy that sits in the chair to talk to the pool of reporters after the game. Their leadership and turning guys into winners seems rather inconsistent based on the evidence.
greenmtred 10/06/2024
Great comments Doug and Frankie T.
Dewey Roberts 10/06/2024
Managers can only do so much, but they can do something. It is that little bit that they can do that distinguishes the great managers from those that are not great or even good but actually just bad managers. The leadership of great managers is just one dynamic but it is an important one. It is interesting to me that the players for the Reds recognize that Francona is going to make a difference for the team while fans argue whether managers make any real difference. I think the players know better than the fans.
2020ball 10/06/2024
Youre a fan right? Why do you think you know more than the rest of us?
If you want us to eat some humble pie you might also try a slice.
MK 10/05/2024
With all due respect Jim Walker I hope this far more positive than the Joe Votto extension which can be argued to be one of the organizations worse decisions (see the Cardinals decision to not mortgage the teams future on resigning Albert Pujols).
Doug Gray 10/05/2024
The problem wasn’t signing Joey Votto. The problem was they failed to give him the kind of help that was needed. They went through two different rebuilds where they didn’t even try to pretend to try and win after signing Votto’s extension. The mistake was the front office not trying.
And the Cardinals absolutely tried to sign Pujols to an enormous, long-term deal. He just went elsewhere.
Jim Walker 10/05/2024
I’ll just add that JV posted 36.9 bWAR over the run of that contract including the down years at the end. He more than earned every cent the Reds paid him. And I think all parties understood the performance was front loaded while compensation was essentially level across it to backloaded so it would work for the team’s budget.
redfanorbust 10/05/2024
Agreed 100%. I do wonder though how much if any did Votto behind the scenes put any serious pressure on ownership to start spending and start being relevant. He is the face of the franchise and some players like that have taken their teams to task over this. However Votto had his no trade clause and if memory serves he had to invoke it on a few occasions when there were rumors or when Reds wanted to trade him. During Votto’s time here there may have been one or two years where there was a glimmer of hope but the rest, the writing was on the wall before the first pitch was thrown.
BK 10/05/2024
“Trying” is a subjective term. Here’s what Steve Adams said about the Reds after they extended Homer Bailey:
“Though the Reds are a small-market club with definite payroll restrictions, the team has spent aggressively in recent years to secure its talent. Cincinnati issued a franchise-record 10-year, $225MM extension to Joey Votto in April 2012 and locked up second baseman Brandon Phillips on a six-year, $72.5MM extension one week after that deal.”
One could argue that a team that “spent aggressively” was “trying.” Later, they acquired a future Cy Young recipient as well.
To MK’s point, Adams also said, “Despite that spending, the deal calls into question whether or not the Reds will be able to retain the rest of its rotation.”
There was an opportunity cost to signing the Joey Votto extension that meant the Reds would have a limited ability to build a winning roster after allocating such a large percentage of payroll to one player. I’m glad they locked up Votto, a future HoF player, but that decision had ramifications.
Doug Gray 10/05/2024
The Reds tried early with Votto. Then he played through two different rebuilds over the next decade.
BK 10/05/2024
That’s partially true. They botched rebuild #1 by waiting too long to start it and prioritizing MLB ready talent.
Votto was no longer an MVP caliber player during rebuild #2. Of note, the Reds did not cause the pandemic, but their ability to “try” was absolutely affected. Context matters. “Trying “ is a poor metric. The pattern of losing is sufficient to criticize the organization.
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
Votto hit 36 HR with 99 RBI in 2021. OPS+ 139. Got MVP votes.
BK 10/05/2024
Yep, rebuild started after the 2021 season. The Reds “tried” in 2021, JV’s last season as a positive bWAR player.
Tom Reeves 10/05/2024
I love Joey Votto. He’s definitely my favorite player and I’m glad I got to see his entire career as a Red.
And he definitely earned his contract and then some. He’s one of the few big name free agents to ever have their value exceed their contract.
All that said – his contract was a terrible decision for the Reds. The Reds handcuffed themselves financially (even without the Covid years).
Tito’s job is very simple – get the most out of the talent the Reds have. And the Reds have a lot of very young, inconsistent talent and it’s time for that talent to mature.
The Reds training staff needs overhaul as well.
Michael E 10/06/2024
Cardinals didn’t choose to let Pujols go. As I recall they offered like $180 million over 7 years or something like that. Maybe it was higher per year.
Pujols walked away for a bit more from Arte Moreno.
The Cardinals simply got lucky, very, very lucky. Apparently Pujols was the Real Frank Robinson, you know, an OLD 30.
The Angels continued their run of unlucky and/or unwise. Then they paid for a career-hobbled 3B, Rendon, which was more unwise than unlucky.
Jim N. 10/05/2024
The worst decision ever happened on December 9th 1965. Do I need to elaborate?
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
Think of the Big Red Machine with Frank Robinson from 1966 through 1971.
Mauired 10/05/2024
That trade probably never needs to happen if Reds didn’t pass on signing a lefty Bearcat in 1954. The kid in his first year of pitching showed incredible talent but was wild. Reds passed. Koufax signed with Brooklyn.
Early 60s Reds could have had Robinson and Koufax (same age) starring and winning several pennants with supporting cast of Rose, Purkey, Pinson, O’Tool, Jay, Harper.
Reds never would have traded Robinson for pitching with Koufax on the team. In 1966, Reds would have had the triple crown hitter and triple crown pitcher.
And yes with Robinson in the same lineup of Bench, Rose, Perez, and May BRM most likely would have won it all before 75.
Optimist 10/05/2024
I always thought it was until I recalled the infamous 12/15/00 deal we all regret. You know, Mathewson for Rusie. (there’s more to it than that, and the Frank deal is by far the worst, but still, lol . . .)
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
Reds 1966 (?) WHAT IF FRANK ROBINSON NOT TRADED
1B Johnson Coleman 2B Rose SS Cardenas 3B Perez INF Helms C Edwards Pavletich LF Robinson CF Pinson RF Harper OF Shamsky (12) SP Maloney Ellis O’Toole Nuxhall (when Jay TRADED) Arrigo CL McCool RP Nottebart Davidson (8) MGR Bristol GM DeWitt
Reds (?) 1967 1B May Johnson 2B Helms SS Cardenas 3B Perez C Edwards Pavletich RF Rose CF Pinson LF Robinson INF Ruiz OF Harper (12) SP Maloney Nolan Queen Ellis McCool/Arrigo CL Abernathy RP McCool/Arrigo Nottebart (8) MGR Bristol GM Howsam
Reds (?) 1968 1B May 2B Helms SS Cardenas 3B Perez C Bench LF Robinson CF Vada RF Rose OF Jones INF Ruiz C Pavletich (11) P Maloney Culver Arrigo Nolan McCool CL Abernathy RP Lee Kelso (8) Bristol
Reds (?) 1969 1B May 2B Helms SS Chaney 3B Perez C Bench LF Robinson CF Tolan RF Rose OF Stewart INF Ruiz C Corrales (11) SP Merritt Maloney Nolan Arrigo Culver CL Granger (6) MGR Bristol
Arguably those are all 90+ W teams and playoff contenders each year.
docmike 10/07/2024
Disagree completely about Votto. I can’t believe anyone would argue that it was “one of the organizations worst decisions”. If anything, it was a great decision. He was well-paid over the course of the contract, but he earned every penny and more. It is not his fault the team wasn’t good enough most of time here. Votto did his part.
DaveCT 10/05/2024
I think the young Reds players will remember David Bell as like a minor league manager who helped them get to the major leagues, or a coach who helped them to adjust, etc., and that Terry Francona will have them realize that this is a serious business now.
TR 10/05/2024
I’ve commented for some time, especially this past season, that a change and shakeup was needed in the dugout. We certainly got it in these past few weeks. Terry Francona is an experienced, winning manager who is more than I expected. He’ll need the support of the front office/ownership to bring a winner to Cincinnati.
JayTheRed 10/06/2024
Having Francona as manager might actually draw players wanting to play under him.
David 10/06/2024
That, sir, is a very good point. Terry Francona could indeed influence free agents to sign with the Reds.
greenmtred 10/06/2024
I hope he does. My suspicion is that the money they’re offered (or not offered) will be a far bigger factor.
GreatRedLegsFan 10/05/2024
It’s definitely a very encouraging move, Bell should had been replaced since at least 2022, Reds were going nowhere under his helm. On the other hand, the position players roster has so many holes that’s hard to envision a sgnificant improvement in just one offseason, but let’s give FO the benefit of doubt. Go Reds!
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
The Enquirer had (has) a neat article today detailing how the hiring went down. The interviews took place in Tucson, AZ (where Francona lives) and Bob Castellini even flew out the second day.
Francona was the only external candidate interviewed. Freddy Benavides was the inly other candidate interviewed. His interview went very well but Francona was #1 choice.
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/a-cold-call-100-name-list-and-jumping-jacks-how-cincinnati-reds-landed-terry-francona/ar-AA1rJB5T?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=4cb51086feda4b96a356c21f3fce8d0f&ei=29 linked.
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
The Reds hired the following managers who were WS champions at some point.
Pat Moran. Bill McKechnie. Mayo Smith. Sparky Anderson. Lou Piniella. Jack McKeon. Dusty Baker. None were WS champions until the Reds hired them. Francona is.
Maybe others but those are the only ones who come to mind.
Oldtimer 10/05/2024
Correction. McKechnie won WS for Pirates before coming to Reds.
Rednat 10/05/2024
Davey Johnson with the Mets
TJ 10/05/2024
I’ve searched, but haven’t found anything yet. Has David Bell issued a statement about his firing or his time Cincinnati?
Mark Moore 10/05/2024
I’m among those who thought Bell was in over his head and it was impacting the team. Nearly impossible to quantify in terms of games lost instead of won, but patterns could be observed by most of us and they weren’t positive very often.
I was shocked Tito was selected and have to wonder what conditions he put on the FO to make that happen. We certainly were not the only club looking and even some who were on the bubble might have made a change if they could bring Francona in to manage.
I have to believe there will be a greater sense of accountability and discipline. I’m very hopeful that plus another year of maturity leads to better performance. Plus this makes me wonder what Santa will put under our tree in terms of new players.
Well stated all. Thanks for the different perspectives.
greenmtred 10/05/2024
+1000000, Mark.
Votto4life 10/05/2024
As always good points, Mark. Like you, I am cautiously optimistic the Reds have d
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